The Ron Paul haters….

Updated:

I updated this post, after having read one of the posters blog entries. I also deleted the abusive comment because it made me rather ill to re-read it and I don’t know why I have to give such wretched specimens of humanity space on my private property. So out, out, you nasty trolls, go back to the backwoods and swamps you were infesting. Begone!

A letter from a reader who apparently hates Ron Paul: Why should I bother? | nunya@aol.com | IP: 76.103.124.111

“Ron Paul is a right wing protofascist populist. Lew Rockwell has more than a few racists. CounterPunch has it’s share of oddballs. Dissident Voice has it’s share of politically naive and clueless children. You are either a naive fool or a hopeless utopian simpleton like the fellow who wrote the pathetic missive you have chosen to copy and paste. I assume you have a darker complexion than the average northern European. You had better hope and pray Congressman Clueless never becomes President. I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that there is little chance of that happening. Racists love Ron Paul, you dimwitted schlep. David Duke supports him. I think he was a Grand Dragon in the KKK. What the hey? Ghandi didn’t think much of blacks,

either

.http://blog.occidentaldissent.com/category/ron-paul/

This, BTW, is a real journalist:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/man-of-hour.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/ron-paul-vs-new-world-order.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/six-impossible-things-before-breakfast.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/trouble-with-ron.html

If you read through this material and you remain unconvinced, you are blind, stupid and hopeless. I’m getting too old to care anymore. You fools deserve what you ask for. I just hope you aren’t the first dark-skinned person on your blog to enjoy a nice cross-burning or to get dragged behind a pick-up truck. And you call yourself a “journalist”?

My Comment:

Dear Reader –

First, here is an example of the protofascism behind Ron Paul: here, in this letter – sounds just like Hitler to me.

I wish I had more time to answer in detail your interesting letter. And especially to argue those pieces on Ron Paul, filled with careful research and even more meticulous dissembling….

Let me just say: thank you for the links. Despite your abusive and ugly language, I think you are trying to save me from myself. So a hat tip to you, too.

But, I may not be in need of it. I am not courting the favor of opinion-makers here or anywhere. I am trying to still some voice in my own heart.

Let me just say that had David Neiwert written a study of a left-wing sub-culture, he would not have been awarded an alternative online award. The corporate awards in these areas go to people who trash the left, the alternative awards go to people who trash the right. Usually. Those who are not trying to undermine anyone, but only trying to understand things are left to blow soap-bubbles on their own since they won’t squabble in the sand-box with all the other nice kids.

And much of Molly Ivins’ rhetorical style was taken from the equally clever right-leaning journalist Florence King, I hear.

Meanwhile, does the liberal-left need to be exposed on anything, you might ask?

And I would answer, yes, indeed.

Is there any bigotry on the left?

You bet.

To my mind, as this article shows, it is covert but as deep and in some ways as dangerous as that on the right. Only, it does not show its face as clearly and may show us its fruits only in time to come. And unfortunately, the exposure of left bias is being done by people like David Horowitz who have their own dangerous political agenda (in relation to Middle Eastern politics, I mean).

I am more interested in the dangers of today, than in those of the past. White Christian males (how’s that for a racist category just there) are presently not the only or the most racist people I know, I can assure you.

They (hmm…I can see the whole lot of them – Poles, Irish, Anglos, rich and poor, taking their marching orders from Gary North and Ron Paul, no doubt in between burying gold in their backyards and laundering their multiple wives’ burqas) seem to be reacting defensively.

That’s how I see it right now, anyway. What they might do in the future is anyone’s guess, but that is my perception. The evils of white racism, however, have been so extensively criticized and constrained that I think at times public opinion today (not public culture or institutional bias, I agree – but that’s another more convoluted story) borders on a form of reverse racism. It’s surely wrong to focus solely on white chauvinism and ignore the chauvinism in other communities (to wit. the Duke lacrosse team case, anti-Christian bigotry among Muslims and Hindus, intra-Asian racism, recent black- on- white murders), although, this has to be negotiated with sensitivity to different levels of power and capacity to do harm.

In any case, if I am mistaken on this, it behooves me, as a person of color (not a phrase of my choice but to be polite to cultural norms here), to extend my hand and open my sympathies precisely to those who historically might have been associated with the oppression of my racial group (in the case of Indians, it would be the British empire, of which the American government is the self-styled successor). I have to be generous to white, Anglophone Christianity simply on that score – to be credible as some one who is fair-minded.

To imply (by your last remark) that that morally sensitive position is equal to racism toward blacks is simply laughable, diversionary, and smearing-by-inversion.

As a long-time student and admirer of European culture I am in the peculiar position of having to reach out in generosity to those elements in it which I admire as well as those I identify as having been oppressive to people like me (a moral task), while at the same time being critical of both (an intellectual task).

To do either only would be false.

Besides that, if we are going to go on about racism, white racism is not the most sanctioned bigotry today. Anti-Arab, anti-Muslim rhetoric; bigotry against certain forms of Christianity (not all Christianity, Christianity which genuflects to power, is highly favored today); targeting and harassment of isolated individuals who do not have the institutional support to fight back or even defend themselves; anti-male bias among opinion-makers (combined with misogyny in the general culture..an interesting combination); hatred for anarchists and non-statists and unaffiliated libertarians of all kinds: these are the most respectable forms of prejudice today in this country. In other countries, the dangers might lie elsewhere, I don’t deny.

I am not trying to pass for white…but I am not interested in passing for black or Jewish either. I don’t even want to pass for Indian. Or Chinese (so sorry, great grandma). I think human will do, and is hard enough.

We need to be aware that beliefs are like medicine. Different kinds work in different doses on different ailments. What kills in one place and at one time heals in another.

Your frequent references to dark-skin lead me to believe you too live in a racial glass-house from which it would be unwise to cast stones. Jews, blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, Muslim, can all be guilty of racism and chauvinism…to one degree or other. The consequences of their racism (i.e. how dangerous it is) mostly depends on their relative histories and positions of power.

Your letter undermines itself. Gandhi expressed certain feelings (reflective of his age and culture) toward black South African workers, as did Jefferson toward his slaves, as did even Jesus toward the Samaritans, and as many Jewish prophets toward non-Jews. (I bring that up, because I think from your letter that you are Jewish).

That does not make me despise Gandhi, Jefferson or Jesus or the Old Testament prophets. It makes me realize that “no man is good except God (or Goddess)”

It makes me more inclined to deal fairly with all opinions and to open my mind (and heart) to the whole human race…to all voices. But especially to the voiceless. People change, they open, grow….why be so transfixed by labels, so crucified by crucifying time?

I am not naive at all. I am aware of all the guilt-by-association tactics employed by “mainstream” writers to weed out which opinions and which people get heard. I just don’t think I want to be part of any of it. I think it is morally corrupting.

I avoided academics for that reason.

Having been published (punished) on the right and left and having established some journalistic creds that way, I will now try to avoid publishers too. When I have enough to retire on comfortably, I will write for myself and avoid readers, as well (chuckle).

I write to clarify my own thoughts and to interact with others who can contribute to that process.
If I have to, I’ll wait for another generation (should there be one left after our own insane one passes away) or some future non- human but literate creature to figure out who was in the right or wrong (assuming that anything we write has not long vanished); if not, I will be happy to join the unoffending dust and the meek silence of the void.

PS: It’s GandHi, not GHandi. I don’t know why that bugs me so much.

By the way: Originally, I took out the abuse because I wanted to address the comment without putting filth on my site. And because I wanted to see whether a soft answer indeed “turns away wrath”. But, lookit, Jesus, you turn the other cheek, and you get it in the neck….

But apparently the “gentleman” (irony! irony alert!) took that in the wrong way (sigh).




No matter how "inclusionary" "diverse" and "sensitive"
this man's public positions and opinions may be, his
private attitudes are pretty nasty.  And maybe
THAT is how we should judge people. Not by random
remarks made when they are being provoked; not by
unpopular political positions that they may have
good reason for holding; but by their day to day
treatment of people who have not injured them.
The fine talk doesn't impress me, at any rate.

Summing Up Comments:

We had a very lengthy discussion on this post between Scimitar (from a communitarian perspective) and John Howard (from a libertarian perspective).

I sum up one central difference (as I saw it) and add my take on it, here. I think it might help:

FIRST: I found myself partly in agreement with both on one point. How so? Because lack of liberty in one area (which JH cites) can coexist with license in others (which S cites).

So, Scimitar – I agree with you (and with communitarians) on the need for balance and for seeing things as they are, not worshiping abstractions. Liberty and license are two different things.

But, JH is right to say there is also a lack of liberty.

As I see it, both operate today, but in different realms and in different ways.

A concrete example: small business is overregulated, while big international businesses – also technically regulated by the same laws – are often able to elude them – because of their privileged relation to the state (i.e. they become a rentier class). You have lack of liberty and license together.

I think the Language of Empire book dealt with a lot of that — to put in a plug (chuckle!) but hey, it’s true. License can even operate through the law as I argue in it. Anyway, here’s what I wrote:

[I am writing about how “patriotism” (i.e. support of the state’s globalist policies) is really the unabashed support of corporate-state interests. Not talking here about what Scimitar referred too – the virtuous citizen defending the res publica, for the good of the community)

“This “patriotism” feeds off a a type of radicalism that uproots shatters, homogenizes and perverts the traditional values of community and individual and replaces it with the mass.”

(Ch 8., p. 132 “Virtual Violence”)
That part of my analysis agrees with what S is saying, I think.

As you can see, I don’t really find S (community) and JH (individual) at odds…

Instead what I find is artificially constructed individuals and artificial communities (produced by mass culture) at odds with real individuals and real communities

I don’t know if you’d agree or find it convincing but you can see the kinds of games language plays on us…

That’s why we have to deal with human beings and not be confused by the language the empire uses.

Comment on Racialism and Racism

Update: I went back and looked through dictionary entries for racialism and racism and it seems from them that my distinction between the two is not held by all in the same way.

Here is Merriam-Webster, which is what I grew up with:

Main Entry: ra·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
: a theory that race determines human traits and capacities; also : RACISM
ra·cial·ist /-list/ noun or adjective
ra·cial·is·tic /"rA-sh&-'lis-tik/ adjectiv

Note, that this definition of racialism (that human characteristics are defined by race) is not mine – it is too broad and would obviously then include racism.

I think that’s why ‘racism’ is placed next to it as a variant – which, to my thinking, ought not to be.

Take an example. Let’s say your research finds that ethnic puddleducks (just to make up a group  so as not to be inflammatory) are more likely to get their feathers wet than regular ducks. Are you then a ducka-phobe or duck-ist? Even though your intention in researching may be to save puddleducks from wetfeatheritis, are you now the same as someone who commits duckicide? Gee, someone who might even want to wipe out the duck population?

Give me a break! But that seems to be the position of these dictionaries.

Still, at least, a distinction is recognized.

A similar but not so clearcut distinction is also maintained in the American Heritage Dictionary, which at least gives the second usage a separate entry as it should: racialism, it seems, is also a British usage for racist (something I wasn’t aware of before):

ra·cial·ism play_w(“R0006500”)

(rsh-lzm)

n.

1.

a. An emphasis on race or racial considerations, as in determining policy or interpreting events.

b. Policy or practice based on racial considerations.

2. Chiefly British Variant of racism.


racial·ist adj. & n.

racial·istic adj.

hm();Sources=Sources | 2;

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now, that makes more sense, otherwise all the people who tell us that Indians (sub-continentals) have a different blood-type from Caucasians would have to be deounounced as potential Nazis.

But, apparently, other dictionaries DO NOT agree and go with John Howard’s position:

An online dictionary (how good, I don’t know) inverts the meanings and makes racialist more malign in meaning. That doesn’t seem right to me.

Wikipedia (which judiciously prunes and alters things, as anyone knows who has watched the appearance and disappearance of material, defininitions, and so on…) sees no distinction. Now, that could simply mean that the distinction is no longer made routinely or is being erased or that most people are not aware of it.

I will research this more, but if there is no distinction being made any more, there needs to be one or we will be practicing self censorship unwittingly.

Anyway, that the distinction exists is apparent to anyone who had read extensively in the area – it appears all the time, as here:

“While thwarting all majority efforts to weaken minority gains, it would reject the kind of “benign’ racialism that we increasingly take for granted. ” (that’s from an article in the Washington Monthly).

Elsewhere,  David Horowitz  makes that distinction when discussing alleged (I am using the qualifier not to disparage the notion but because I haven’t personally studied the media coverage of it)  media black out of  black-on-white crime.

Don’t be surprised when such usages, which people born outside this country are accustomed to making without controversy, start disappearing or changing, leaving us without a vocabulary to discuss what is plainly a crucial topic.
In any case, after having had the time to read his blogs, I find that Scimitar, I think, rather mischaracterized his position.

He is not a raciaLIST (one who thinks racial considerations have a role to play in government policy – a position that is not necessarily malign) but rather a racIST (one who believes in the genetic, biological, and civic superiority of one race over another).

(However, I let his comments on my blog stay, since he worded his argument reasonably and without abuse).

He implies clearly that he “does not believe in racial, civic, or biological equality” whereas Ron Paul does.

Obviously, at one level, there really is no such equality – not all people or all races are mathematically equal. But to say that something is not mathematically exactly like another is not the same thing as saying that they are inferior or superior to each other on the basis of an arbitrary quantification that is simply delusory.

Why delusory? Because, the criteria that are used to establish superiority have varied to suit whoever does the selection, and have been shown to change (IQ tests, for example) and use samples and methodology that are – when you look at them closely – somewhat questionable..

The problem is a confusion of language and different meanings of equality that are used in a fungible way inaccurately. Again, I honestly see that as an outgrowth of the whole statist mentality. The use of language as a tool – whether it is to educate (indoctrinate) or propagandize necessarily involves the simplification of ideas — which means the misuse of ideas. Equality is first misunderstood and then misapplied, leading to false ideas of mathematical equality and inequality that do not obtain.

Why the Ward Churchill affair is important 

That's also why this Ward Churchill fracas is so
instructive - you  get to see opinion makers position themselves
carefully as they go for the jugular - isolating
Churchill from the mainstream left and then letting
the steam-roller of public opinion do the rest....it's
Machiavellian alright..that's the morality of statists,
just there. Then when the right does that to them, they
start whimpering - no fair.  

That's what happens when you adopt statist mentality
 and the tactics of power politics with individuals.
Now, here's my comment on Josh Frank's recent piece on the 
trashing of Churchill by liberals in DV (which I
agreed with).

My Comment on the Churchill trashing:

People who consider themselves “free-thinkers” and “dissidents” shouldn’t be involved with turning people into pariahs for their thoughts. Free thinking and free markets together. Propaganda and rigged markets go together.

People don’t consider politicians pariahs for the things they actually do, do they?

If society doesn’t shun Bush or Clinton or Brzezinksi or Kissinger (sticking to American pols alone, for the minute) – who are directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundereds of thousands of people – millions…or Jeff Sachs or Alan Greenspan or any other economist whose policies have ruined whole economies… then why on earth are we picking on someone for something they just said? Did Churchill kill anyone? Did he bomb, or poison anyone? Did he steal, plunder or rape? Did he connive and lie?

No, he was voicing an opinion
Ah!

You don’t have to agree with the guy. I don’t. Refute him. Don’t lie about him and trash him. And about his rudeness to somone one day: the guy is under a lot of pressure.

Talking about himself? I guess he’s feeling a bit persecuted these days. Understandable, I think.

Personally, there are many days on which I ‘ve blown off steam for much less.

I have a bit of a story on this because my publisher had sent out for a blurb request from Churchill (whom I had not read and whom I had heard about only in relation to his delineation of Native Indian history) before the controversy developed.

Not remembering this, I wrote a piece on Churchill’s article — “Little Eichman’s and the Harijans” for Counterpunch (http://www.counterpunch.org/rajiva02152005.html).

That’s the perverse logic of binary inversions of black and white and it’s what the radical rhetoric of the right and left both miss. In the immediate aftermath of an event as emotional as 9/11, was the public debate really served by comparing ordinary money managers to the arch-Nazi Eichmann? Would Churchill also be willing to argue that some Iraqis citizens in Fallujah may have tacitly supported Saddam’s oppressive policies and might therefore also be little Eichmanns meriting extermination?

The greatest danger of magical thinking is not simply in the likelihood of such inversions boomeranging to hit you in the face – witness “reverse discrimination” and white or Brahmin backlash – but in the strengthening of exactly the passions and irrationality on which public support for war feeds in the first place…”

In the article, I spent some time – objecting for various reasons to Churchill’s use of the word “Nazi”

I did not say it was a morally indefensible argument – I said that it was tired and intellectually somewhat weak.

A month or two later, I got a blurb from Churchill in which he got his back with a two-handed jab that endorsed my work (He called it “excruciatingly precise” ) but also reiterated his own use of the word Nazi firmly.

Guess what? Having by then waded through a stack of Bush jurisprudence, I was overcome with Schmittean flashbacks…

Nazi still sounded wrong to me..but the legal justifications and military and nonmilitary acts of omission and commission were certainly similar enough that while my criticisms were good ones, Churchill’s rejoinder was apt…

Calling a country’s laws Schmittean (Promethean was the word I coined) is suggesting its government is similar to the Nazis, so why split hairs? Why be so excruciatingly precise?

I felt a momentary twinge. I had been temperate and said something which people might be able to digest without becoming enraged.

Churchill said something that discomfited people…

I am not now sure who took the high road…

I stuck the blurb on the jacket.
Distancing myself from it at that moment would have been wrong.

And distancing ourselves from Churchill, when we really are saying the same things, only in different or more subtle or more nuanced ways, is somehow not right.

Even though, prudentially, I agree, his style and tone might not help.

Intuitively, morally, it is the right thing to do.

On Neiwert and North

[I should add that I am not trashing David Neiwert’s work – I haven’t read it, but see from the reviews that it was carefully done research.

All I am saying is that were some one to do an equally carefully researched piece on (or subverting the opinions of), say, the sub-culture of NY-DC liberal-left opinion making, it would be studiously ignored, however carefully done.

So – please all Neiwert admirers. This has nothing to do with him. I am just saying there is bias on the side of liberal opinion-makers, too.]

(Another aside: I am also not defending Gary North. I haven’t read much of his writing and can’t speak about what he thinks or doesn’t think).




			

60 thoughts on “The Ron Paul haters….

  1. L.,

    Re: Your long post above.

    Racialism is not necessarily aggressive or hateful.

    This is very true. I wish more people were of this view. As I have explained, racialism is simply 1.) the acknowledgement that racial differences exist and 2.) are relevant to public policy questions.

    How we react to this state of affairs goes beyond racialism (which is merely an acknowledgement of the reality of race). There are a diversity of approaches. There are white separatists who would dissolve the United States into racial enclaves. There are race realists who would have whites reassert their racial interests like other groups currently do. There are libertarians like Charles Murray who would give up on integration. There are eugenicists who hold out hope for a medical remedy. There are liberals who would use the genetic lottery as an argument for redistributive justice. There are conservatives who would use heredity as an argument against various government programs. The mere acknowledgement that race exists and has salient effects upon public policy doesn’t imply that we should hate other races or mistreat them in anyway. So yes, there are “benign racialists” in addition to the more radical ones.

    Re: liberty

    As a communitarian, I agree with you that “liberty” is a good, and limited government is an ideal. The difference is that 1.) we believe “liberty” has to be balanced by other goods like “fraternity,” 2.) we reject the harm principle as a consequence, 3.) we are equally suspicious of the market and government alike, 4.) we don’t see the state as the enemy like you do. I believe your ire is misguided. The problem is not so much the state as it is character of the population itself. The fact that powerful groups have captured the state and are using it to advance their own interests is a symptom of the moral rot that is so pervasive in American culture today. Where are the virtuous, vigilent, public spirited citizens busily organizing themselves to fight the usurpation of their liberty? Why do Americans stand for it? Because more and more of them are people like John Howard, self-absorbed in their own petty lives, who really could care or less about the welfare of their fellow citizens, much less future generations.

    Virtue is the foundation of liberty. Dispense with virtue, as the libertarians generally do, and the population will degenerate into a vicious mob. Sooner or later that vicious mob will throw up a tyrant to do their bidding. And thus liberty ends as it began – in the arms of tyranny. Moral lesson: a government is only as good as the people it governs. The man who exercises his “freedom” to desert his own family can’t be relied upon to sacrifice himself for the sake of liberal abstractions.

    Re: the state

    I’m not sure where to draw the line between “the state” and “government.” “Government” in some sense has always existed. Even the smallest, most obscure tribes are dominated by authority figures which are seen to possess a mysterious “legitimacy” that others lack. I believe human beings naturally live in hierarchial societies. All the other primates do. I don’t see what could possibly be done about this. “Government” is a sort of extended phenotype. The tribe, also. The notion that “the people” can govern themselves sounds nice, but doesn’t really work that way in practice. Even in democracies, the public looks to the media and other authority figures for cues as to which way to vote.

    Re: lack of control over where one is born, and so forth

    A good point. I would follow up on that and point out that the individual is largely a construct of his surrounding environment. Religion is a good example of this. Is my sense of individuality separable from the culture I was raised in, the language I speak, all the knowledge of others that circulates in my head? No, I don’t believe it is.

    Re: historical grievances of immigrants

    Yes, I am well aware of these. As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of Virginia, such negative historical experiences, in addition to the strong racial differences in morphology, will always “divide us into parties.” I believe that is as good an argument as any for immigration restriction and some form of separation. In that case, best we part ways on good terms.

    It’s not like I can’t see where American Indians, African-Americans, and Hispanics are coming from. On the contrary, I clearly do. Will these groups ever forget these historical grievances? Will they ever cease to hold them against whites? Will they ever eschew their own group identities and join whites in their pining for a colorblind utopia? I’m not convinced they will.

  2. Just to say, that I censored some of Scimitar’s post not because I am afraid to debate them honestly but because I don’t want some one with an axe to grind to take them out of context and post them as an example of what I endorse. They are not.

    The sections related to

    1. Supposed correlation of levels of social violence and social freedom with racial type

    2. Supposed racially and politically motivated agenda to mongrelize American society

    I am not going to answer them in the comments section, because I think this section has got long enough.

    I will take up this thread in a new post, summarizing as best I can the main points in your arguments.

    L

  3. “Yet, at the same, time JH, don’t you think what S says is also true – that there is an excess, too – an anything goes, all-rights and no-responsibilities public culture as well?”

    When individuals are robbed of their liberty by collectivists, they are robbed of responsibility. The more decisions that are taken from their hands, the less responsible they become. A free society breeds responsibility because individuals are no longer able to use government to help them rob their neighbors or make up their minds for them. They must begin to be responsible for themselves as the collectivist welfare state is dismantled because their survival will depend upon becoming responsible.

    It is a grave error to look at the behavior of people under the rule of a vast collectivist empire and to assume that that is how they will behave when free. Liberty means independance. But that means being both free of your neighbor and leaving him free of you. Liberty imposes responsibility.

    So I conclude, don’t worry too much about the current behavior of people. Set them free and they will adapt to liberty by becoming responsible.

  4. JH –

    I totally agree with that.
    For me – even the corruption of our language stems from the state.

    If you look back over the last 400 years, what people think of as capitalism has always been state driven mercantilism. The enlightenment grew up around it. You don’t have to reject the good that came out of that but you have to reject certain misuses of logic, rationality in contexts where their use must be embodied to have any value.

    Verum factum. Truth is an act.

    “ll nations begin by fantasia, the power of imagination and the age of gods which are needed to comprehend the world. After that, there comes a second age in which fantasia is used to form social institutions and heroes are used to inspire moral virtues. The third and final age is the age of rationality, in which humanity declines into barbarie della reflessione — barbarism of reflection. According to Vico, this is a cycle — gods, heroes and humans — which repeats itself within the world of nations, forming storia ideale eterna — ideal eternal history.”

    I talk about it in my new book, “Mobs, Messiahs and Markets” — this misundertanding that if we don’t have a state telling us what to do society will degenerate into chaos and also here in this article “Katrina and the Fishy Logic of the State.”

    But I think, we need to close this thread and I will start a new one, with the starting point being some of the main points of contention between you and S (as I see them):

    Is Libertarianism license? Or phrased another way, does libertarianism needs ethics or does it already assume it?

    Community versus Individual (Are they opposed?)

    Does racialism always lead to racism ( I would argue that it depends on the form the government policy takes)

    And then, the more controversial aspects of S’s post (which is secondary to a debate about libertarianism, of course.

    Maybe these need several posts….

  5. John Howard: “Finding patterns where there is an infinite number of patterns is easy.”

    when it comes to animals, race, biology, the valid pattern is ancestry.

    John Howard: “What you can’t do is to prove that the particular pattern you are pointing at is any more valid or significant than any other pattern.”

    OK then let’s try classifying animals by the number of legs that they have. That should be as valid as any other classification. Let’s see:

    the 4 legged animals would be all in the same family
    the 3 legged ones,
    the 2 legged ones,
    the 1 legged ones,
    the 0 legged ones,
    etc.

    in the 4 legged category we would have : horses, cats, dogs, elephants, rhinos, crocodiles, turtles, rabbits, giraffes, rats, lizards, etc.

    in the two legged ones: humans, chimpanzes, kangaroos, lemurs,

    the 0 legged ones: whales, fishes, snakes,

    and that would make sense, right ?

    John Howard: “You can not prove what is a race and what is a half-breed without setting an arbitrary standard by which to measure every individual.”

    it’s only arbitrary if you believe that Individuals are supreme Choice-Making beings and are not influenced by their parents’ genetic background and the group from which they came from. I don’t subscribe to that libertarian religion and I wonder why some do. I mean you can hope that some day racial heredity would be not relevant anymore and you could work to promote the creation of a grey/beige single race but to assert that all humans and all human races are born equal is silly.

    Was it the lack of freedom that prevented the aboriginals of australia to build a great civilization or to discover the wheel ? What about Africa ?

    Either you believe in evolution or you believe in equality.

    John Howard: “You can create whatever arbitrary lines of demarcation in that continuum you wish but that does not mean those lines are objectively significant.”

    for you nothing seems to be objectively significant except whatever you can come up with to justify the libertarian-egalitarian dogma.

    John Howard: “So a bunch of narrow nose, straight-hair whites enslaved a bunch of their wide-nose, curly-haired brown cousins and got away with it partly by arguing that brown people are a different race.”

    it was africans who sold other africans into slavery and they didn’t need some scientific justification to do so.

  6. To make things clear my racism or racial patriotism doesn’t imply some justification for harming other races who live elsewhere on the planet – in fact if white nationalists were in power in the West we would likely not be involved in the Middle East or elsewhere around the world and we would deal honestly with arabs and other races. We would welcome tourists of all races and some foreign temporary workers and perhaps some racial foreigners as citizens but our laws would ensure our survival as a group. There wouldn’t be attempts at colonization on the part of non-whites in our lands and we wouldn’t be in their lands trying to impose “democracy”, “free trade” or some other scam.

    Compare that to the policies of “our” current leaders : they wage wars against arabs and other nations, they twist the arms of lots of nations through international organizations and global banks and they have opened our gates to millions of invaders from the non-white world to drown us in the cauldron of “diversity”.

    They’re the mortal enemies of the West, the worst traitors we have ever had.

  7. You aren’t letting me close this thread and start a new one.

    JB – you make some valid points, such as the complicity of the powerful members of a colonized or enslaved group in their colonization or enslavement. I agree with them.

    But would you also agree that people can enslave withOUT racism and enslave WITH racism and that the distinction (like all subtleties) needs to be addressed?

    Would you agree that the role of the state in fostering human trade needs to be looked at carefully, as well, and that it cannot be seen solely as the outgrowth of culture?

    Can I also suggest that different levels of technology are only that…that one can well have barbarism and technology too?

    And also that many stone-age cultures (in fact, I have heard anthropologists argue – but don’t cross examine me on this till I research it better) show evidence not of being primitives left behind but of being cultures that have stultified through loss of contact with the original meanings of their rituals?

    Can I further suggest that extrapolating from present circumstances to larger theories about races and racial attributes is quite suspect as a method and has in other cases proved exceptionally ill-founded?

    Take India. In the 19th century, British imperialists made all those same arguments you are now making about African culture – ie. our customs were barbarous, we had no ancient civilization, our classical language was rubbish, Hinduism nothing but superstition etc., etc. (read even Macaulay, not the worst of them by any means).

    Well, in the early 20th century, excavations by the British themselves uncovered the Indus Valley Civilization – an advanced civilization that is as old as the Egyptian. I won’t go into it any more; just to point out there is now no question that the “barbaric” Vedic thought of the Indians is ancient and the source of a cross-fertilization of ideas that led to among many other things: Emerson’s oversoul, Schopenauer’s philosophy, Nietzsche’s notion of the “body” (he took many of his best ideas from eastern religion), theosophy, the New Age of today, a lot of the work of transpersonal psychologists, Reich, most of Jung etc etc …..

    I have no doubt that the same holds true in the African continent.
    Some argue for a substantial African contribution to ancient Egypt. I don’t know for sure.

    But I do know that the human mind is exceptionally capable of deception when it wants to be deceived and that how we interpret history often says more about us than about the past.

    PS: I opened a new post with some of the main points summarized…if you want to take it there.

  8. I don’t see the connection btweeen the derivative bubble and the fed debt-based system. However, I do have thoughts on both.The administration needs to work with congress to repeal the CFTA (Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000) to re-regulate commodity futures. (Plus a lot more. Such as repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley (1999).)As for the fed and the debt-based system, sure, too much debt is bad. However, what would do you do when there’s an emergency and you (or a loved one) might die if you don’t run up your credit cards? Well, of course, in almost every case, you’d use the credit cards. Chances are some day (as we’ve done before) the debt can be paid down especially if we don’t overspend. Clinton did it!

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